maker and activist in washington we have daniel polak he is co-director of government relations for the zionist organization of america and in new york we crossed to norman finkelstein he is a political analyst and author all right gentlemen crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in as you wish i hear if i go to you first you're in gaza tell us what's happened there what you've seen over the last twenty four hours. over the last twenty four hours we've seen an escalation in violence from israeli air force and israeli naval vessels and feted on tragically every single part of the gaza strip even in the most recent moments before we were according this program earlier today i had to evacuate a scene while i was filming for a documentary as israel struck areas which are densely populated the gaza strip is one of the most densely populated places on earth so everyone here is terrorized including the internationals and no one actually is safe in gaza tonight then are we seeing a repeat of what we saw four years ago. it's really up to hamas the the people

of southern israel have been in bomb shelters where they have less than fifteen seconds warning more than a million israelis have spent the weekend in bomb shelters during two thousand and twelve we have more than nine hundred missiles launched it israel and israel has shown remarkable restraint but now what israel has done is to capitated the military command of hamas and it attacked the missile storage spots and that's what they've done so far the next step is up to hamas unfortunately i'm told by the i.d.f. in the last twenty four hours two hundred forty five missiles have been launched it israel so if they continue to do that i'm sure there will be additional attacks up to and including a ground assault if that's the only way for israel to defend itself ok norman where do you came in on this i mean another ground assault you've written a book about the last one. oh i don't think there will be

a ground assault with i do think it's true that it's pretty similar in the build up to what happened in two thousand and eight two thousand and nine back then israel was worried about what it called the current capacity means its ability to terrorize people in the region after the defeat it suffered in two thousand and six by the party of god that has eleven and now israel has been suffering one foreign relations debacle after another first there was mr netanyahu who smuggled the iranian bomb into the u.n. and held up the bomb for everybody to see nobody took him seriously and the consensus seemed to be that yahoo is a mania which he is and then there was the hezbollah drone missile which flew over and came quite close to dimona in israel then there was the visit by the head of state of qatar to. and then there was the. visit by

the prime minister of turkey who namely mr. and also even their own puppet regime that installed in the. north already was going to up with the. going to the un ok ok that's. a lot of ground right there harry can you tell us what the consensus is a sense of dread that we're going to see the ground assault again it was quite devastating how are people reacting you're seeing it yourself i've spoken to dozens and hundreds of palestinians since this operation has been launched and all palestinians i've spoken to expect things to get greater than they already have been over these last forty eight hours people are expecting a ground incursion we're getting reports various reports about that saying that it may last several days we've had three reports now of the i.d.f.

. forces very afterwards leafleting north parts of the gaza strip in arabic we've seen leaflets saying that we're going to invade the gaza strip so yes people are prepared for that well that is a psychological warfare tactic whether it's going to happen or not we remains to be seen but everyone is on high alert and the gaza strip is much quieter that i place than it was a week ago dan you just to jump in there go ahead i love how humanitarian gesture by the i.d.f. is interpreted psychological warfare what they're telling people to do in these leaflets is to not be human shields in front of missile launching facilities nobody's mentioned so far that three israeli civilians were killed in syria. in southern israel. by missiles that were launched on purpose at civilians all the israeli attacks on us military targets i mean honestly i don't know what it is i

think has what israel woman has being killed dozens of children have injured and then you know as i started more of this is what happens ok you know i mean i jump in go ahead. you know but i would like to. then talks about using human shields and targeting civilians so how the current round begin there was a lull until november eighth november eighth israel with its height precision technology israel killed a palestinian child then there was retaliatory by the palestinian this is this is as usual are going to not already there wasn't all a fire down there were hundreds and hundreds of this was on fire and on fire and they're going to have to let me talk to you then you're going to have to behave let me talk you get your time when you're always going to retaliate by firing them. by firing on israeli soldiers so how israel retaliate israel where it's high

tech precision technology then fired on the soccer field and killed two more children then there was retaliation by the militant groups and what is we'll doing next well there was a funeral for the two children who they killed in the soccer field israel targeted the funeral of the two children fired on the tent now dan has to agree with me that israel has on its own in the sense that side trip and you know it so to let me just say if that is the facts here that's how it healed mystery the truth is that it would miss israel tarries high tech weapons so the higher. precision with which israel attacked the commander of hamas military commander and its. indiscriminately attacking one of the lawyers and really populated sorry gentlemen let me let me go back here you go. let me go back to new york cigars

a gentleman harry the israeli home defense minister of the dictator said quote there is no president in history of destroying terror by air power alone it hasn't happened and won't happen first it is necessary to reformat gaza altogether reformat so what does that mean to you well this means to me more psychopathic language coming from the state of israel and i mean that absolutely critically and coldly that is the kind of nature of the minute shopper ation that they're launching it's obvious by the name of the operation operation pillar of cloud is a biblical reference these are people that are employing psychopathic language to justify psychopathic violence being inflicted on a largely defenses third world population here in gaza last thursday a thirteen year old boy was killed by israeli forces playing football that is one of the events that started this retaliation so that is the real context of what is going on here in gaza children are being killed i was in the hospital ninety

minutes ago i remember i was fairly strong there only when there was an arrow who was actually injured at a funeral parade that was targeted and i think you know it began with precision weapons ok you can get the head of hamas but then you kill children i mean how precise are they are they precisely killing children. if you look at the israeli record of using these precision weapons a good parent with when russia has been in combat with the united states has been in combat when britain has been in combat there are far fewer civilian deaths in these conflicts that israel has participated in than any other western power that's absolutely true and the truth is when you start a war and there's no country on earth that would allow hundreds and hundreds of missiles to be fired to start tori without responding when you start a war there are consequences israel is not going to sit idly by while we're going to see that there is no country in the one hundred eighty on what it would actually

accept to miss healthcare that only two hundred thirty eight and i think is exactly what is happening. and are being struck into gaza and i want to armenia. gentlemen norman jump in both of you really really. have been reading them the past few days. what's happening in gaza has very little to do with what's happening with gaza itself mostly is really calm freely acknowledged it's not even a matter of trying to use double language and freely knowledge where they say that this has to do with an upcoming election that in fact mr jabari the person who they targeted mr jabari he was what harvard's israel's leading newspaper they described as quote an amusing in their words mr jabari was israel's enforcer in the gaza strip he was the one who kept things quiet for the past when they many arrived at first of all and the men are middle of the record for people like you in israel it

has a tiny circulation but what they were saying in that article in haaretz is that he has was unwilling or unable to make other islamic organizations besides the islamic resistance. stop firing missiles at israel in fact hamas and they're really says ready willing for the latest series i never said i am going to marry i want to hear a gentlemen resist twenty seconds before we die or a kerry go ahead. well i don't know what this time is islamic resistance surely one percent of the population of palestinians do resist with an armed resistance which is justified and put in international law as a right for the palestinians to take up arms to expel occupies and oppress us from their territory palestinian children being killed palestinian resistance groups fire fire rockets into israel or a sham and i jump in here we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on gaza stay with us. and.

we'll do the. science technology innovation all the list of elements from around russia we've got this huge earth covered. resistance is not our politics but our culture. is could. on its own.

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free credit take three months for charges free arrangement free. free. free. download free broadcast quality video for your media project a free media oh god r.t. dot com you. play it. welcome back to cross talk i'm here all about your mind you were talking about the ongoing assault on gaza. and if you. start. ok damn about to go back to you in washington no country should accept being gay and no country should accept being bombed i agree

the palestinians probably shouldn't be bombed either but what about the right of resistance ok the siege that day is going on in gaza what right do the palestinians have to resist. well this is this is one of the great canards of this argument if the government defacto government and hamas would live peaceably after every israeli the entire gaza strip is judenrein there are no jews there except when norman visits the entire area is completely free of jews and israelis. have the option to live in peace but they've chosen but they're living in what they call reason they're under siege this insist they're under siege your listeners and they're under siege well they're under siege because they refuse to live in peace they're importing weapons from iran what life is like in the southern areas of israel everyone every school every home has to have a safe room that's reinforced and they have a fifteen second warning to get to that room on

a siren day out harry and you know millions. warnings in dallas. diaries nominees are going to palestinians in gaza are no more because they don't always have the right to high african slaves no out of challenge and escaping from the own imprisoned homeland there are no bomb shelters in gaza no building and say they have a very real chance although having hutaree lately and which their neighbor isis ok to look well you and i can us an argument that i was a peace guy and with. the very man that drove me to conduct this interview just told me in the taxi that he would invite jewish people to stay in his home if they would stop bombing the gaza strip ok norman jump in. complaining about the situation in southern israel because for the last three years israel has been boasting alongside the americans about the magnificent iron dome.

protection for israel and this iron dome was going to stop all the hamas rocket attacks so what actually happened. on the very first day of this current escalation the very first day three israelis were killed and that was three israelis equals the toll will number the total number of israeli civilians who were killed during operation cast lead and ration cast lead it was three civilians and combatants and so this one did iron dome which israel has been bragging about it turns out to be a big joke if you accept the fact that everything israel said that norman is linking might casey's then i think you have a good starting point go ahead no i'm not making your case the case i'm making is a norman is a. single word iron dome made of israel you shouldn't trust

a single world the state of israel says. ok dan it was a good starting point and that's what that's what you're on record saying all the time the truth is that missile defense is something that can mitigate unprovoked aggression by these missiles but it can't stop the loss of life ok and i'm glad israel has iran and that is the united states important question decadance that i said and people that he was humorous and which they are resisting so i don't want unprovoked aggression that means there's a logic in the sense is no substitute for living in peace with your neighbors all right norman go ahead the gentleman let's listen to norman go ahead totally i totally agree with. the people on hamas and there is a siege there well there's also occupation in the west you know certainly israel

can deal with the palestinian authority in the west bank after all they pay all the bills for the posted in authority the palestinian authority is on their payroll so why haven't they been able to end the occupation of the west bank why do they continue to build settlements in the west bank while they reject all the power peace already here you know that what you call all the palestinian efforts in the west bank you call the west standing of where the palestinian authority with their own puppet regime they can't even reach a peaceful resolution of the conflict and the occupation. things norman let's. let me reply but it's easier to keep the west yes only and go only the west bank was occupied by a puppet regime the truth is that what you call the west bank is what is the land of our fathers it's the historical homeland of the jewish people and it's disputed

territory it's far from belonging to the palestinian and are. not disputed tannery and. palestinian territory i know well is that what you're mistaken about a very which is an on line item as this argument but to answer the question the fact that the palestinian authority is not. acting in a responsible way is an argument for my side not for yours israel has tried to live in peace with its neighbors it's bent over backwards to grant political rights to the pals already harry and they still do that the palestinians are under siege in gaza feel that israel is trying to make peace with. israel is trying to kill them they've described the last few days as a massacre i will give you a rough direct quote israel is destroying our people and trying to destroy and it is our right and duty as palestinians to defend ourselves and fight for our rights that is the message from gaza norman what is the end game what can the israelis do

that they haven't done already ourselves no they know i'm going to norman norman what can the israelis do now that they haven't done before and we will succeed from their point of view. i don't think i don't think there will be there may be a ground incursion but there won't be a ground invasion because both turkey and egypt will be on the phone to washington in particular the turks will be very angry because they're now doing the u.s. is dirty work in syria and it's going to look as if they care about the syrian people but they don't care about the people of gaza which is not the message that prime minister wants transmitted and so he'll be on the phone with washington as will the new egyptian regime saying they couldn't tolerate a new operation cast lead and i think that pretty soon there's going to be a we negotiated cease fire in gaza i would want to earn my i would want to keep in

mind however that israel is achieving some of its goals so as the head of state of qatar promised four hundred million dollars to gaza and things were actually looking economically economically things were actually improving in gaza and many people in the west bank were saying gaza looks better than our situation so it was time for israel to go in and mayhem wreak havoc destroy as much as they can in or once again to reduce gaza to a desperate state ok dan reply yeah that's truly absurd the answer is it's up to the hamas decision to continue firing missiles at israel they cannot with impunity kill israeli civilians they're going to find regardless of how harry feels or how norman feels that israel's going to defend itself like every other

country in the world will turkey would do it this way egypt angeles's way israel the united states and we again we do not have i said. send it so that response holliston ians are hearing here and let me ask you the question is radio well prepared are the gazans are and they're not only carry. people are stockpiling on fuel and food police stations which are targeted by israel historically have been largely evacuated all education centers have been shut down definitely hospitals already announced a crisis situation within an hour of the operation being launched the situation is grave and as i said the situation is quiet in gaza in respect of the streets people are in their homes the situation is hot in terms of the violence but it's quiet on the streets it is quite like a ghost town norman if you mentioned egypt i think that plays into this very interesting lee what if they open the border. world it was one of the reasons the

operation cast lead to two thousand and nine was so successful because egypt sealed the border turned into a shooting gallery it turned into a killing you know shooting fish in a barrel which israel prefers israel's the most cowardly army on earth and saw always targets in gaza because it knows there is no resistance from there for example in two thousand and six when the war in lebanon the right the israelis were terrified at the prospect of a ground invasion and they held off on the ground invasion because they knew that the party of god those are serious fighters and the israelis would suffer serious casualties but the most cowardly army on earth won't do it spoken like a ruler a just man army if you recall that is really true is is really is. there is true it is true. opens the border there will be a mass exodus from the civilian population which is exactly what egypt doesn't want

and which is exactly why egypt will be on the telephone with washington saying no we cannot tolerate a massive influx from gaza we're going to have to tell israel to cool it states i think will do so again what is a good outcome for israel in this speak last time i went through this it became more and more isolated israel's going to become even more isolated now. the arab spring. i don't worry too much about israeli isolation i worry about them doing the right thing to protect their people i think the good outcome is that everyone understands that when you kill a jew when you kill an israeli that there's a price to be paid and that's exactly what's happening now israel's way you buy it on the border being it is not the same war and his right they will be. well that's true i'm not an israeli i'm a jew i'm just happy that israel is defending jewish lives anywhere in the world

and in this case in southern israel right israel and i'm going to give a very good idea of having the last word quiet i'll give iran the last word there are the gazans part of the world i mean we've got twenty seconds of preparing for the when israel kills injuries and maims innocent palestinian children as it has been doing over the last few days palestinian resistance groups will retaliate all right gentlemen we're out of time i wish we had so much more many thanks to my guest today in gaza washington and in new york and thanks to our viewers for watching us here are to see you next time remember cross talk rules. and.

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